Golf

» markbarnes19 - Tiger is most intimidating?

I like your logic, Alan, but I have to disagree -- maybe just because I'm the basketball writer.

I would definitely go with Jordan. I think it's hard to intimidate in a game like golf. The players are playing against the course.

Michael Jordan's foes had to deal with him. When the game was close, time was running out, and Jordan had the ball, everyone knew it was over.

-- posted by markbarnes19

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» Alan L. Hammond - Tiger is most intimidating?

In response to Tiger is most intimidating? posted by markbarnes19:

Let me put it this way, Mark. Golf is more mental than physical (which didn't leave much hope for me from the beginning). For pro golfers, or anyone playing comptetitively, each shot is like trying to make the game tying free throw with no time on the clock. They're not just playing the course.

Imagine that feeling with the added pressure of Tiger Woods competing against you. You know he never falls out of contention once he's in it, in fact, he usually charges on instead of treading water like Nicklaus, great as he was, usually did. If you trail him, you have to make no mistakes. You'll feel an urgency to take chances you usually wouldn't; the first of those that go wrong usually kills a guys chances, although it shouldn't.

The same thing goes if you are ahead of Tiger. I've watched players competing against him for years. He even gets to guys like Singh. In the 2002 Masters (I think), they all, Singh, Goosen, Mickelson, Els, Garcia, tripped all over themselves. I think it was Goosen who just handed the tournament to him.

I remember the first time I played in a tight, competitive situation. Suddenly, I was aware of every movement I was making. Nothing felt natural. When you're in a zone, things come together and just happen. That's where Tiger is. He's put everybody else stumbling around in the other category.

I think Jordan just outplayed everybody and made his teammates do the same. He was undoubtedly the ultimate clutch player. I never saw his competitors cringe, though.

So, Tiger is most intimidating (without the question mark).

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» Bob Miller - Tiger is most intimidating?

In response to Tiger is most intimidating? posted by alan1066:

I got in on this a bit late, but I enjoy the topic too much to let it die. I think the definition of intimidation is fluid enough to accomodate both positions. MJ and greats in other sports (arbitrarily, Ray Lewis, Roger Federer as modern examples) don't necessarily create a mental obstacle to achievement in the process of competition, especially in the tenth-of-a-second reaction games like basketball and football. It is their ability to make plays a few hundredth of seconds faster and more accurately that sets them apart.

As an example, I remember the famous shot over Craig Ehlo that MJ made. I don't think any player could have played Jordan any better than Ehlo did then, it was Jordan's superior abilities that allowed him to make it. I don't think Ehlo's defense was affected by the idea that it was MJ against him, it was more of a case of pure physics. Now in the broader view of competitions, I do think that great players affect preparation in game planning, but when the whistle blows I don't see people being scared - in fact, I think people are challenged to bring out their best, which makes superstars even more remarkable because everyone is looking to take them down and be the new king.

Now golf and Tiger, here's where Alan correctly cites an intimidation effect. But what does this say about the fragile psyche of top golfers when they stop doing the things that make them successful and begin to play defensively, or conversely over-aggressively (ala Phil Mickleson)to try to beat him? Tiger only "intimidates" because these other over-compensated alphas of the tour allow his presence to get into their heads.

So if we are to define intimidation as a mental phenonemon, then yes Tiger is by far the most intimidating. But physically, I would throw up if I knew I had to guard MJ in his prime or carry the ball up the middle against Urlacher. So not to be PC, but you both are 100% right!

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» Alan L. Hammond - Tiger is most intimidating?

In response to Tiger is most intimidating? posted by Writerbob:

Bob, I think you may be the only one of the three of us that is 100% right. You've added a new dimension to my thinking, but I don't know that any of Tiger's fellow golfers have a fragile psyche. Tiger came in with the exhuberance and confidence of youth and was able to quickly establish a reputation, and well deserved.

When faced with an opponent with the skills and unfaltering confidence, it makes a person realize past missed putts, errant drives, etc. I would maintain they are only victims of human nature and until someone is able to overcome that, Tiger will remain where he is now until age beats him. Now, that may be at 35, 45, 55 or 65. Who knows.

Great post, Bob.

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» Alan L. Hammond - Tiger is most intimidating?

In response to Tiger is most intimidating? posted by Writerbob:

By the way Bob, since you are contributing to the Golf section, I think we should interlink our articles when possible going forward. It will be beneficial to us both. Drop me an email and let me know what you think. ALH

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» Bob Miller - Tiger is most intimidating?

In response to Tiger is most intimidating? posted by alan1066:

I agree that Vijay, Phil et al don't have any ghosts in their machine. I should have more accurately portrayed it as a physiologic event where they try to go for too much in terms of club selection or thinking that they need to make birdies when in reality pars work fine. It's the muscular tension that accompanies these perceptions that dooms their shots and therefore their results.
I remember Ernie was either tied or a shot behind Tiger at Augusta several years ago and on the 13th he clearly should have pitched out of trouble and played it as a normal five, but he went for a big sweeping hook and in the drink.

Ditto Phil last year at the US Open. I know for a fact that I or you, if we didn't faint while trying, could have hit three seven irons and two-putted to at least get into a playoff. That was sans Tiger, but the muscular tension theory holds here too. This sort of rambles off the "intimidation" idea, but ultimately we are our own worst enemy on the golf course, as I think these examples demonstrate.

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» birdieaddict - Tiger is most intimidating?

In response to Tiger is most intimidating? posted by markbarnes19:

I think one of the points being missed here is fact that all of the athletes mentioned here were or are remarkable in their own respect. What distinguishes, or more to the point, what sets him apart from the rest is that Tiger changed the entire face of his sport. The line of demarcation between the pre-Tiger years and the post is night and day. No player in recent memory has forced his fellow competitors to look both inward and outward so profoundly. I may be getting away from the crux of the conversation a little, but before Jordan basketball was basketball, and basketball is still b-ball. Take a look at golf ten years ago, there is so much more money now(thanks to Tiger...heck he even forced the powers that be to re-design Augusta..everyone on tour should be thanking their lucky stars above that this man came to dominate. Tigers' domination comes in that form, the fact that they all know he is the best in the world on almost any day he dons a pair golf spikes.

-- posted by birdieaddict

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» Alan L. Hammond - Tiger is most intimidating?

In response to Tiger is most intimidating? posted by birdieaddict:

Great point! Not only has Augusta undergone an overhaul, so have many other courses in the U.S. and abroad. He's had an impact like no other. The physical face of the sport and the mental, maybe even emotional face, have been changed. Can anyone rise up to remotely challenge him?

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» birdieaddict - Tiger is most intimidating?

In response to Tiger is most intimidating? posted by alan1066:

Golf is the most nuance saturated game on the planet. I mean were talking about the most hyper-sensitive pro "athletes"on the planet....When was the last time you heard about a hockey player breaking ribs from sneezing(loren roberts)or being laid-up for 2 months because he through his back out playing with his kids(tom lehman)very rarely...can you imagine what Red Wings fans would think of Lidstrom if word got out that he couldnt play because he sprained one of his fingers(steve jones)Hed be the laughingstock of Detroit. To say that pro golfers are a little neurotic is tantamount to saying Paris
Hilton is a not a virgin....it goes w/o saying. You look at some of the trivial discords that go on during any given tournament week and its like a bunch of kindergarteners on the playground during recess.....The players that are best suited to bring Tiger down are those that have faced the beast before and proved him mortal...Look at Nick O'Herns defeat of Tiger at the Accenture Match play....I mean he is the last person you would think of having a chance of beating the "exalted one"...but hes done twice!!!!...previously at the Dunhill Masters I believe...Other notables like Darren Clarke for instance with his cigar smoking respite between extra play-off holes against Tiger at the World Match play in 2002... It takes an air of non-chelance and panache, and the game to back it up...which Darren did and emerged victorious....great stuff...So it can be done...but it is a very arduous task....Golf like any other sport is a game of inches..and the difference between victory and defeat is ever so slight.. Tiger has raised the raised the bar just high enough so only he can clear it..look..ten years ago...the words personal fitness trainer and professional golfer very very very rarely were ever uttered in the same sentence...now its hard to even find one tour player that doesnt have a cadre of personal assistants, a swing guru, or an open once a month meeting on the Dr. Bob Rotellas couch...players are now so immeresed in the mechanics and the psychology of the game that it has lost alot of the character that once made it so endearing.. Tommy Bolt...Walter Hagen...The Squire...the great legends of the game are probably having a good laugh looking down at the game today...A bunch of pampered princes getting rub- downs in the Kaiser -Permanente Massage bus...Whatever...it is what it is and there is no going back...

-- posted by birdieaddict

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» Alan L. Hammond - Tiger is most intimidating?

In response to Tiger is most intimidating? posted by birdieaddict:

In defense of Loren Roberts, he is over 50 now, though I'm not sure when he sneezed and broke his rib. Sure, golfers don't have to be in great shape, and many aren't, but that is attributable to the nature of the game. It's difficult to compare golf to hockey, or hockey to basketball, or basketball to baseball. They're just different animals with different requirements.

About the state of the game, when the problems with golf reach a critical point, the fans will bring it back into compliance with thier wallets. Like so many other professional sports, scandal, horrible behavior, and pampered-millionaire-prima donna detachment from reality will bite it in the behind, if it ever gets there. I submit it's a long way from there.

I too would like to see a lot of the personality return to the game. I hate to see John Daly go through so many problems, but he adds a great deal to the game. Likewise, I hope Boo Weekley can have success. It appears he has a genuine, honest character that isn't often seen.

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